The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. As our ministry grew we ended up handling adult issues also. Im so sorry, I promise I wont ever do it again is the first line of defense of the alky, no extra charge for the tears. A few years later as my fathers health deteriorated it was late and I was in the shower and I heard this crack and for the very first time my father called out my name in desperate need, it was in a voice I will never forget. She stated in her comment to H.U.G. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. This thread started about S Jnr & comments were specific to his situation alone. Sometimes it takes the strength of one brave soul to shine the spotlight on evil and help save victims. The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. The scars are still there but not that noticeable. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. I was stopped, he was doing 55 in a 35. the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. People who dont even pick up a drink can have unhealthy behaviors. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. It can also be very hard to live with one. Would you please clarify what training you have, paid or unpaid, with substance abuse? You didnt intend to hurt people. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. . throw him out of the house. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. People need to wake up, I agree; and TURN from these deceivers and their despicable fatalistic, man-made gospel. Good heavens! I dont drink alcohol. He totaled many of my grandparents vehicles. They also seem to be very kind and generous; not manipulative, etc. For R.C. I have heard that alcoholism which begins as a reaction to another issue, can become itself an issue as large and consuming as the original one. JA, I addressed that in a blog post on my Miss Daisy Blog some time ago (that my posts at Barbaras blog were censored for mentioning codependency. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack. Apparently you dont understand the nature of alcoholism if you dont think his case is bad enough. I never laughed so hard in my life as reading that book. But interventions and treatment does work. (caps and emphasis intended). Here is one wonderful article by a Christian woman in recovery, who waged her battle with alcoholism in secret and she explains what she thinks the church can do. If I have said something that has caused you harm, please let me know. If you had to be stuck on a desert island with one of three guys, A commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/State-AG-files-13-felony-counts-against-Contra-11220366.php, https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, https://baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/#.WUxPq-mQzIU, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4, http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/, https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders, http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/, https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html, http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. Just my take on it. I got hit by it some 20-odd years ago, when my bathtub plumbing sprung a slow leak into the unit below me, occupied by a retired rummy (retired as in Im Retired!). Haha. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). (Which, admittedly, was not a part of the original discussion.). Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. It just sounds creepy to me. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. Lights Out: Drinking The Reformed KoolAid?. @ Julie Anne: The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. 2. If she were experienced her statement would have started with, As far as we know Those who do have practical experience know that its exceedingly difficult to know for certain if their alkie loved one is really dry unless that is theyre sloppy drunk with a low tolerance for the stuff, which RC Jr is not. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. Dear friends, Now that my rant is over, I feel that if a business can tell tell an employee Joe you have a problem thats affecting your work, get help then a church should be able in love to request/require an individual to get treatment. I get full after two. That has nothing to do with your situation, which we do not know about, nor anything to do with what you have said since you have not said any of those things. @ Deb: I never found any of that helpful in coping with depression, anxiety, or grief after my mother died. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. not even to eat with such a one., IMHO, these behaviors are socially dangerous, and therefore, that is why, perhaps the Bible says to not socialize with those who practice these specific 6 in the church. They are false teachers without a flock, but with a following. And yes, we must continue to pray. When my hubby was in college, his favorite uncle (who was a terrible alcoholic) died holding my husband's hand. So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack.. Those of us who have practical life experience with alkies know theyre masters of deception, and it doesnt get any more deceptive than faking humility, remorse and repentance, something that alkies often develop much practical experience with. Velour wrote: I wonder if they are applying this to all, or only to people who fill certain roles? More than anything thats what his parents should have been concerned about all these years. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? Q. RC Sproul Jr was facing up to 7 years in prison and $21,000 in fines. I need to be careful to look to Scripture for my measure of Gods Law for sin, not taking the measure from what people and tradition may say sin is. Not born again huh? I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. :0| Not only did Christian solutions not work for my depression and anxiety (prayer didnt work, Bible reading didnt work, God did not heal me, etc), but neither did the psychiatrists, psychologists, or the medications I utilized for many years. Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. Did you miss my comment to you at 4:41 p.m. today? Color me angry. My mother would ask me the same question over and over. I had not heard that. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. 1960. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree. A commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: I attended seminary with Jr. when Dad was teaching at RTS. The church. Hundreds of people showed up. And guess what Yeah. The last time their PCP prescribed a pain killer without knowing the patients drinking habits what problems with the med did you notice? He needs to be in in-patient treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else troubles him that the medical professionals figure out). Or would you see the situation differently? RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? He mocks people who dont drink like he does. And its important to try. Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? (P.S. But as others have said, if he doesnt go into treatment voluntarily and want to get help, it will do no good. That is horrific. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. Christiane wrote: The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. This is fallacious. Or at least Ligonier Ministries. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; Frustration, yes. Daisy wrote: Family (1) Trivia (1) Christian theologian. That sounds very Mark Driscoll-ian. Sproul 2s drinking. If people in his orbit keep hiring attorneys and keepmaking sure he has lots of money, they are enablers and will bear some of the guilt when something tragic happens. It seems to me that secure and confident men (I dont like the term real men/women) should do as they wish/deem wise themselves, instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. That is not the point. Max wrote: This is not a hill to die on and one of the purposes of the blog is to understand the point of view of others. But here may be a hint. I am opposed to hauling out the hurting people argument when and if it is an incorrect application of the idea for several reasons. Maybe H.A. (aside from neurological difficulties that may come after an extended time period). Is it possible that his son is reacting to the terrible theology he was taught? The legal issue with Sproul 2 is that he wasnt diverted to the substance abuse court which dealt with misdemeanors and he was being charged with felonies. Velour, much as I love you & welcome your comments here can you let this go please? R.C. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. But on Sunday mornings he taught a class at Oreland Presbyterian Church comprised mostly of adult professionals. Its fine for you to decide that YOU want to knock it off. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. 12-step groups like Al-Anon and Adult Children of Alcoholics also address these issues. The church as the playground of sinful social behaviors that are demonstrably harmful to others? Some might call it being accountable. As word of these charges spread a number of other former members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church also stepped forward and corroborated the allegations, including the fact that some of their own children had been plied with alcohol without their consent. Somehow George Jones song He Stopped Loving Her Today comes to mind. What Jesus commanded of us. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. When she died, the church (silently) bore all the funeral costs. You know how to contact her. The term Dark Ages is Velours term, and one she has painted any of us with who happen to take what the Bible says literally about Matthew 18 church discipline. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Those that saw the issues, which were primarily with the entrepreneurial head pastor, minimized them and advised me to hang in there and focus on my small group fellowship. Unfortunately, it means humbling yourself and opening up your family to public inspection. It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Please explain to us how her logic is flawed. I enjoy reading here! By the way, you have posted before what area of medicine you worked in. R.C. claimed that Al-Anon and sponsors tell people to separate from alcoholic spouses. So what did his parents hope to teach him from that? Not many would criticize the moderate consumption. All Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries results for Vesta Ann Voorhis. She and I part theological company. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. I stand corrected. Back to my point, Al-Anon doesnt make these recommendations including separation. I cannot add to or take away from Gods Word. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. It has nothing to do with the point that blaming the father for the sins of the son is not logical To say the least . OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. ~ja, Myself and RC Jrs other adult children are estranged from him. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. I was laughing at the double-entendre of the typo. I was very clear that R.C. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. Disfellowshipping someone who refuses repentence and change should not be a life sentence as it is not so in scripture. And I mentioned several times RC2s behavior that justifies him being put out. She was in a very fragile place. What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? Answer: not that much so dial it back. Yes, very insightful. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. That of course is subjective and christian people will disagree on what is help and what is enabling. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. . He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . Not always. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I said in my post that the topic is banned on your blog (which is a shame, because learning about it has helped me immensely. Last month, a young couple from my church was in a horrible accident just down the street from my house. he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. I get that we all sinbut this is different. Sproul Jr and the Pittsburgh Pirates. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. And then, even *within* a denomination, my former one being PC-USA, when a pastor is fired for cause (affairs, embezzlement), he can move across the country, and in a different regional body, talk his way back into a pastoral position. Sproul Jr. and even his father Sr. Do you think that this is the best use of their contributions to give to Ligonier Ministries when they are used to support someone like R.C. On May 30, 2017 RC Sproul Jr appeared before Judge Frances C. Gull in Allen County Indiana Drug Court to determine his eligibility for the Drug Court Treatment Program. TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!. Serous help? United States. The average age of a Sproul family member is 74. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. Yes, they can be a big help but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Any alcoholism (whether helplessly dependent, wantonly revelling in, or anywhere in between) going on in Mr Sprouls life is going on in the life of a prominent minister who claims (and, it would appear, wields) authority over other believers. Were not just talking about an alcoholic (RC Sproul Jr). I said, as you know, that he should lose his job. Velour, Im not going to directly answer your question until I can tell the story properly with vetted sources. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA. 2, but I will upset folks if I have said something that has caused you harm please... 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